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Post by starletinwaiting on Nov 26, 2019 10:20:20 GMT -8
"I've always wondered how humanity got to the point that we splintered ovee things like gender and race. How did it become 'men are better than women' or 'white is better than black'? How do people come to hate other people for something that makes them different?"
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Post by Joelle on Nov 26, 2019 16:27:32 GMT -8
"The 'men are better than women' thing, I'm guessing, comes from 1 Peter 3:7, where women are referred to as 'the weaker sex.' However, I believe that a more appropriate translation of that word 'weaker' would be 'more delicate,' as in the Good News Version. More delicate means, in general, physically weaker. But it does not mean 'less valuable'. Men and women are each valuable and have their own purposes as a man or a woman, and one is not supposed to be seen as better than the other. It's more that they complement each other. And hating others... that's a big one. I could make a guess and probably be wrong- or at best, only half right-, but for now I'll say that the things you hate- your prejudices- sometimes have to do with the way you were raised.."
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Post by starletinwaiting on Nov 26, 2019 17:02:33 GMT -8
"I understand the whole being raised that way deal, but how did things like that get started? That's what I want to know. How did somebody in the past decide that a certain person wasn't worth their respect? It makes no sense to me."
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Post by Joelle on Nov 26, 2019 17:24:04 GMT -8
"Hate can start as a lot of emotions. Jealousy, for one. Cain was jealous of Abel because God accepted Abel's sacrifice, and jealousy led to anger on Cain's part, which led to his murder of Abel. Deciding what people are worth our respect because of what they have and don't have is ridiculous, but I think my point is, that's human nature. Those of us who are willing to see past ourselves will like a person for more than their things, or what they can do for us."
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Post by starletinwaiting on Nov 26, 2019 17:38:50 GMT -8
"Humanity is so... so effed up," Austen sighs. "There are so many better things people could do with their time and energy than waste it hating on someone."
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Post by Joelle on Nov 26, 2019 20:16:23 GMT -8
"I think that's partly why we need forgiveness. Sometimes the person won't say they're sorry for hurting you, and in that case, the best thing to do is to forgive, or to put it another way, to let go. Letting go doesn't excuse the pain, but to quote something I saw on Facebook once, it's so that person doesn't live rent-free in your head." She smiles sadly. "Because sometimes it's hard enough for you to live in your own head!"
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Post by starletinwaiting on Nov 27, 2019 8:01:07 GMT -8
"God, do I ever know that one," Austen replies with a bitter chuckle. "Ever since the- the miscarriages, it's been worse. It can just feel like too much sometimes. Like everything has fallen right on top of me and the weight is crushing me but I have no way to get out. And it's so hard to open up about any of this stuff."
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Post by Joelle on Nov 27, 2019 12:32:10 GMT -8
"Oh my gosh, that was exactly me! Like I said, God can forgive you for blaming Him, but if you blame yourself, you're stuck with yourself- we have to live in our own heads, And you're right- it is crushing. The pain and the isolation, which causes more pain." She looks at the baby again. "We'll both always have scars from this- there is no doubt. You never forget the ones you lost. But...I finally gave birth to a healthy baby. And we don't know what God's plan is, but there is always hope- always. And...well... you just opened up to me, and I have to you. We're friends now. And if you ever need to talk about this with another woman who gets it, you know where to find me."
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Post by starletinwaiting on Nov 27, 2019 16:41:53 GMT -8
Austen nods, following Celine's gaze yo the baby. "Could I- I mean, would you mind if I- Could I maybe hold your baby? I've always found a- a weird... this is going to make me sound crazy... I've always found a weird comfort in holding a baby."
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Post by Joelle on Nov 28, 2019 8:21:57 GMT -8
"Sure. And no, you're not crazy- or if you are, then I am, too. I was 13 by the time I came to live with my adoptive parents. It was just days before my niece Stefania's first birthday, and when I wanted to hold her, my sister Amy hesitated- only to think how it might be done safely in a wheelchair- and then just put her on my lap with the brakes on. I buried my face in her shampoo-scented hair and whether they'd adopted me or not, she would have been my niece forever." A tear comes to Celine's eye at the memory. She removes the baby from her sling, and as she is already facing Austen, carefully holds her out and waits for Austen to take Bryony. "I think you know the meaning of the rainbow here, yes?" she says softly, gesturing to Bryony's blanket. As if on cue, the baby's eyes open, and she coos. They're Celine's eyes, an icy blue, and her hair is dark, like Theo's.
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Post by starletinwaiting on Nov 28, 2019 9:44:38 GMT -8
Austen gently cradles the baby, smiling as the little girl opens her eyes. "She's beautiful," Austen whispers, clearing her throat to avoid choking up further.
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Post by Joelle on Nov 28, 2019 14:24:44 GMT -8
"I'd say yes, but I'm biased." Celine whispers back. "When they're this little, I like to bury my face in their blankets." She chuckles. "New baby smell! I'm weird. It helps, though."
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Post by starletinwaiting on Nov 28, 2019 14:58:01 GMT -8
"There's something soothing in it," Austen sighs. "I definitely don't think you're weird or crazy for thinking it helps. It does."
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Post by Joelle on Nov 28, 2019 15:46:28 GMT -8
"Good." Celine smiles as she watches Austen with Bryony. "You will be a good mom, when it happens. I can tell already." Technically, as Robin had pointed out to Celine, women who have lost babies are still mothers. But she's not sure saying that will help right now.
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Post by starletinwaiting on Nov 28, 2019 20:42:55 GMT -8
"Thank you," Austen says softly. "I can only hope. I've had enough practice with nieces and nephews. Ronnie has five. They're older now, but I remember being their auntie when they were little. And Angie just recently started her own family too."
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Post by Joelle on Nov 28, 2019 21:41:56 GMT -8
"Oh really? How recently?" She pauses. "If there's a baby I'm sure they and Bryony could grow up as friends. And my other two are nine and five."
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Post by starletinwaiting on Nov 29, 2019 7:28:30 GMT -8
"Angie's due next month," Austen replies with a sniffle as she imagines what it would have been like to raise her own child alongside her baby sister. "Her man has a daughter already though. I wanna say she's one or two right now."
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Post by Joelle on Nov 29, 2019 10:14:56 GMT -8
"Oh gosh...I know how that must feel." Trying to be happy for another person while still mourning your own loss- of any kind- is hard, but it seems harder when they have exactly what you are grieving the loss of. "My siblings all have children except for the last three, the ones we adopted in 2010, right before Theo and I got married. And except for my bio sister, who adopted all but her oldest, they're all biological, even though Carmen- who had cancer- had to use a surrogate. It's...hard to watch, huh? Do you live with your sister?" Celine imagines that that would make the pain even worse.
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Post by starletinwaiting on Nov 29, 2019 11:01:14 GMT -8
"Not anymore. We did before- before she found out she was expecting. Then she and the guy moved in together. If you hadn't figured it out, most of my family isn't super religious so they didn't really care that they aren't married when they moved in," Austen says.
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Post by Joelle on Nov 29, 2019 11:24:49 GMT -8
Celine nods, being one to at least try not to judge. "Even so, it must have been-sort of- a relief to you to not have to watch your sister's belly grow, if that makes any sense. But speaking of the other thing...how do you think you're doing in your relationship with God now?"
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Post by starletinwaiting on Nov 29, 2019 11:45:23 GMT -8
Austen shrugs. "I'm still not sold on what I believe. Everything has been shaken up since the time I was little. My parents' divorce. My mom's remarriage. Her second divorce. Ronnie getting married, having kids, having one of them get kidnapped. Angie's breakdown. My miscarriages. It feels like it's just one thing after the next. Sometimes, it starts to feel like everything is finally going to settle down. But then something happens to rip that rug right out from under my feet again and I have to stand back up, dust myself off, and reset the rug and myself only for it all to happen again almost immediately after."
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Post by Joelle on Nov 29, 2019 12:08:52 GMT -8
"But see... that's the thing. It sounds to me like you're trying. That is to say...you are at least trying to figure out what to hold onto. The rest...God meets us where we are. And there's a definite difference between God's will- the things He wants- and God's plan. Miscarriage- or any death, divorce, kidnapping, cancer, my accident...those aren't things God wants to happen. We were never meant to have any of those things, but sin entered the world. But at the same time, He allows them- maybe to get people's attention- to draw them closer to Him." She pauses, trying to find the right words.
"All is not lost. Jesus weeping was not just a thing that happened while He was on earth with Mary and Martha. If He wept with them, I believe He weeps with us in our pain as well. And as for the belief...He meets us where we are, though some may be further along on their journey than others. That chant I was singing when you came in? It's Orthodox, and used for Easter. But the idea that I could receive light from Christ in the darkness of my accident and the brokenness of the kid I was when I came to my new family sustained me. It didn't make either of those things hurt less, but somehow I didn't shatter from the strength of the pain."
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Post by starletinwaiting on Nov 29, 2019 12:18:37 GMT -8
"It's just hard to know what's real at this point in my life," Austen sighs. "Sometimes, I feel very strongly that God exists and then there are others where it just... It doesn't feel possible that there could be this higher power watching over us. And it's not like I believe one when all is well and the other when it isn't. It's usually a mix. Right now it's definitely a mixture of confusion and anger and hurt and sadness and so so many different voices crowding in on me from all sides. One person says God is real and loves everyone. Another says I'll go to hell because I've been having sex outside of marriage. Another says my lifestyle is up to no one but me. Another says God doesn't exist and could never exist because science says so. It's hard to know what's real and what isn't when there are so many conflicting stories."
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Post by Joelle on Nov 29, 2019 12:51:33 GMT -8
She nods. "You're right. It can seem confusing when there are so many stories. But here's what I think. God does love everyone, and meets them where they are. Sex outside of marriage isn't ideal- for many reasons, but the one I can think of most now is, what happens if he leaves and you do have a baby? Would you have enough of a support system? And even if there would be no baby, sex creates a bond- that much is scientifically proven- and it's easier, in some respects, to get over someone if you haven't connected yourself to them in that way. But they're- mostly- wrong about Hell, because there is always forgiveness for sin if you ask. We all have choices, and in some respects your lifestyle is up to no one but you, but there are ways to make wise choices- for our health and otherwise. And the God not existing thing? It's a matter of having faith- and I don't mean religion. But there are ways we can be pointed to Him. Not only through Jesus and those who serve Him, but through other things- anything He makes. Even this little one here." Celine smiles as she watches Bryony's eyes close in sleep again.
"In the English Standard Version, Romans 1:20 says this: For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."
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Post by starletinwaiting on Nov 29, 2019 14:03:24 GMT -8
"I guess it's just a process," Austen sighs. "I'm sorry if I'm not really in the mood for this kind of discussion. Theology was never a strong suit of mine. My family went to church but we never really studied the bible. It felt more like fulfilling a duty than going because we wanted to."
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Post by Joelle on Nov 29, 2019 18:56:51 GMT -8
Celine nods. "You're right about both things. It could have turned into an obligation for me, but after my accident- with my new parents- everything- it felt like a lifeline. I was a little kid before that...so I don't know how much I really processed at times, but the hard times do make it almost imperative for us to figure out what we believe, don't they? And while I won't bore you with too much more theology, what the Greek Orthodox call theosis- becoming as much like God as possible- and keep in mind he's a loving God, so we must also become love- is indeed a process. It's a lifelong one- I was always taught so, but wasn't aware of how true it was until life got hard. Not many people always realize that it is a lifelong process, at least not right off the bat, and some not ever. I think you're further along than you think."
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Post by starletinwaiting on Nov 29, 2019 20:34:29 GMT -8
"I don't know about that," Austen sighs. "It feels like I'm further than I was before. I don't even know how to start this whole soul searching thing. Do I just start going to churches and see what resonates the best? Do I start reading books or articles? I don't know."
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Post by Joelle on Nov 30, 2019 11:32:03 GMT -8
"I can't tell you that, Austen. Everyone's spiritual journey is unique, because every person is unique. But some people do find out that way. Here's what I suggest. Start with the things you do know you believe in, and rest in those. The issues you're not sure of sometimes work themselves out- though usually through a crisis, whether it's your own or someone else's. It could even be brought on by, say, a news article or movie that's stuck with you. But rest in what you do know- and I suggest spending some time thinking about it. And the rest will come. Like I said, theosis is a lifelong process. Sometimes even figuring out what you believe in the first place is. But you will get there."
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Post by starletinwaiting on Nov 30, 2019 12:58:17 GMT -8
"There's no guarantee of that," Austen sighs, trying not to groan her frustration too loudly. "For all we know, I could get in a car accident on my way home from here and die instantly. Or maybe I end up spending all of my days stuck in this limbo because I can't find time or courage to sit and think things through."
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Post by Joelle on Nov 30, 2019 13:53:19 GMT -8
"I understand your point," Celine admits after a minute. It's something she should have considered with her sister Dawn as well, but she hadn't quite realized it when she was alive. The thought is enough to make her blush. She has indeed realized that life is short, but Celine hadn't thought of it in those terms before. "How about this, then? Think about it now- while the baby's still asleep." Here, Celine stifles a laugh. "We'll just sit here and let the silence wash over us, and it'll be a start- at the very least, you can say you've thought a little."
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