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Post by Joelle on Jun 28, 2019 15:10:30 GMT -8
June 27, 2019
After Carmen learning that they were never divorced and getting back together, Carmen and Matt are considering adding more children to their family. Carmen wants to, but she has a few religious issues to work out first. Nobody knows the triplets were conceived through IVF. The Catholic church doesn't support IVF, and since Carmen was raised Catholic, they had kept it a secret and said Matt's cousin had had the babies with her then-boyfriend. Carmen had felt bad about lying, but at the time, she had considered it the only option, since those with childhood cancer are 12 times more likely to have a stillbirth.
She knows she has to confess the secret- and the questions- to someone, and can't think of anyone better than Celine and Theo. She is brave enough to stop by the church, but somehow, she hesitates before going in. Is this even a good time?
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Post by MarieEliz (Mayor) on Jul 4, 2019 10:05:57 GMT -8
Theo arranges the chairs for the Sunday service. He looks up when he hears the door close gently. "Hi, Carmen!" he says in surprise.
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Post by Joelle on Jul 4, 2019 18:32:32 GMT -8
"Is this a good time?" she asks hesitantly. "I can come back later, but..." Carmen thinks of how to put it, but somehow her mouth gets ahead of her brain. "Do you think there's such a thing as purgatory?" she blurts out.
"I didn't mean to just..." she shakes her head. "But, see, it has to do with this." She hands him the papers she found on IVF, particularly pointing to the part where parents are not told what doctors do with 'non-viable' embryos.
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Post by MarieEliz (Mayor) on Jul 5, 2019 12:35:56 GMT -8
Theo invites her to sit in the third row with him. He is quiet for several moments as he reads. "Why is this on your mind?"
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Post by Joelle on Jul 5, 2019 13:01:27 GMT -8
"That's a loaded story, so please bear with me." Carmen sighs, "I have to go back in time for a little bit. After Matt and I got married, we started trying to conceive, only to find we couldn't. When it didn't work...I did the research, and... it was me." she says, dully. "The leukemia... even if we had conceived, there was site after site- no joke, I think there were 12, at least- that said that a stillbirth is 12 times more likely if the mother has had childhood cancer. I was five when it showed up, but how do you tell a five-year-old that?" she asks rhetorically.
"So..." She takes a breath. "Needless to say, the cancer haunted me- all those years later. We thought of adoption, but when we got married, I think you were still engaged. There was no one to put in a word for us, so...Matt's cousin offered to become a surrogate. And although I felt horrible...because the Catholic church doesn't support IVF...we lied about it." The shame makes her face burn.
"It was technically true what we said- Sabrina had the babies. But we just...didn't tell anyone how. Now that we're back together... we thought about doing IVF again. But the site I just showed you told me what other sites don't. That there were other embryos that might have been..." She can't say it.
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Post by MarieEliz (Mayor) on Jul 5, 2019 13:05:46 GMT -8
"How do you feel about that? Are there more of your biological embryos still frozen?"
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Post by Joelle on Jul 5, 2019 14:57:43 GMT -8
Carmen nods. "There are, And I can see this site's point- that if you use them, or give them to others legally to use- it's ethical. But...the purgatory question? We weren't told, but supposing there had been other embryos that...didn't make it, where would they go?" Carmen sighs. "I'd like to believe that my babies would be in Heaven. but as a Catholic, I was raised with the idea of purgatory. I don't think you just..." she snaps her fingers. "Forget what you were raised with. You might change your dogmas- which honestly, sounds good to me right now- but I think the memories don't just disappear. Whatever the case...it's something I had to work out within myself... before Matt and I did anything else," she clarifies. She pauses. "I feel so...disoriented. I've spent my whole life believing in one thing and I can't just forget what I've learned, but I can't push this new information away, either. And there's something else. I know we maybe should have told the truth, but...I was afraid we'd be excommunicated. If I'm going to change my dogma, I suppose it doesn't matter, so that's not quite it, although I do feel badly. I've asked for forgiveness in my heart for the lie, too many times to count, but...I feel like it doesn't get better, not because God won't forgive, but because I feel guilty for...succumbing to fear," she explains.
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Post by MarieEliz (Mayor) on Jul 10, 2019 15:10:30 GMT -8
Theo thinks for a moment. "Well, let me start by asking why you believe in purgatory? What kind of support or proof were you given for that belief?"
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Post by Joelle on Jul 11, 2019 20:35:44 GMT -8
(OOC: Scripture list from Wikipedia.) "Support- we were told there's a lot, but,,, how do you interpret these, yourself?" Carmen lists a few Scriptures. " 2 Timothy 1:18, Matthew 12:32, Luke 16:19-16:26, Luke 23:43, 1 Corinthians 3:11-3:15 and Hebrews 12:29 as support for prayer for the dead, an active interim state for the dead prior to the resurrection, and purifying flames after death." She sighs. "I don't know... personally, I could maybe see it for adults. And all I have is a maybe there, too. But is there really any need to purify a baby? That, I really doubt. We weren't told there were other embryos that might have been destroyed- hence why I didn't understand why the Catholic Church doesn't support IVF- but that site said many parents aren't told, if not most."
Feeling a little helpless in her confusion, Carmen wrings her hands. "But as for all those verses- Scripture interpretation can be a tricky thing anyway, and so much strife and annoyance can be caused by how different sects of Christianity interpret the Bible. I've heard some Jews have the same issues with interpreting Torah, so I don't think it's unique to Christianity, but still. Didn't Jesus say His followers would be known by our love for one another? Do you think doctrine really matters...at least, much?"
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Post by MarieEliz (Mayor) on Jul 13, 2019 14:01:04 GMT -8
Theo pulls a Bible from under the seat in front of him and flips through the references Carmen gives him. "We can definitely go through each of these references. That will take time of course. Let me ask you, you mentioned changing your dogmas. What about your beliefs is changing these days? What do you believe is the role of Jesus in our salvation?"
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Post by Joelle on Jul 15, 2019 7:25:54 GMT -8
"Salvation comes through Jesus alone," she answers. "I've always believed that. I think what I've been questioning is the role of...works. Do we have to do them in order for God to see that we're faithful to Him? Or are they for others to see that we're truly trying to follow Jesus? The way some parishes seem to put things confuses me, and coupled with my own experience that works don't guarantee us a perfect, pain free life, what are they for? 'Faith without works is dead,' James says, but... what exactly does that mean to you? I'm not sure what it should mean to me anymore."
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Post by MarieEliz (Mayor) on Jul 22, 2019 15:28:33 GMT -8
Theo listens carefully and takes his time answering. "I think you're on the right track. The Bible is very clear that salvation comes through Christ alone and is a gift. Ephesians says, 'By grace you have been saved through faith and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any many should boast.' The Bible even teaches that faith is a gift from God, and that no one comes to God unless the Spirit draws him. We can't even believe on our own!
"The verse in James chapter 2 is confusing for a lot of people because it says that faith without works is dead. However, we always need to take God's word in its entirety. If there seems to be a contradiction, we study to figure out how the two views work together."
Theo opens the Bible to James 2. He reads, beginning in verse 14. "'What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.'
"We know from the Bible that salvation does not have anything to do with being good or doing the right thing because the Bible also says that even our good deeds are filthy to God's perfect standard.
"This passage is showing what faith looks like. For example, he's saying that you can wish someone was warm and fed, but if you don't give them food and clothes, your wishes don't amount to anything. In fact, maybe you don't really want them to be warm and fed because you aren't willing to put in the work. In the same way, if you say you believe God, trust Him, and follow Him, you are going to show that by doing what He says.
"Just remember that Ephesians also says that God saved us by grace through faith UNTO good works. The faith and salvation comes first, then the works.
"However, you started by asking me about purgatory, and it seemed like you were asking if your embryos would go to purgatory. Is that what you were asking?"
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Post by Joelle on Jul 22, 2019 15:49:37 GMT -8
Carmen nods. "That verse makes a lot more sense now than it did! And yes, I was asking if my embryos would have gone to purgatory. I can say that I guess not without being sure entirely. What do you think?"
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Post by MarieEliz (Mayor) on Jul 27, 2019 20:07:27 GMT -8
Theo sets the Bible next to him. "Well, the Bible says that 'to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord'. Because we know that salvation comes by grace through faith, there is nothing for us to work off. The Bible says that Jesus paid the price for sin 'once and for all'. The concept of purgatory is that we are stuck in some kind of limbo or punishment until we work off our sins. That is goes against the gospel. If we have to pay for sins in purgatory, that suggests that Jesus' death was not enough.
"Furthermore, embryos have not done anything to pay for. I do not believe the Bible supports the idea of purgatory, but even if there was one, the embryos have nothing to pay for.
"I think it is very smart to think through this subject, though. It can help you make correct decisions. If there are embryos who have been destroyed, there is forgiveness for that. 1 John 1:9 says "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to clease us from all unrighteousness". That verse was written to the Christian church, so it does refer to people who are already saved and are friends with God. However, we are still human and still sin. When we repent - which means that we confess, apologize, and turn from doing that again - He will forgive us.
"I would encourage you to find out what you can about your embryos. If there are any still in storage, I hope you and your husband will decide on a way to allow them to live."
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Post by Joelle on Jul 29, 2019 13:14:00 GMT -8
Carmen nods. "This gives me a lot to think about, but I think it's stuff I needed to. I know that Christians don't necessarily have to have the same dogmas to love one another, but with that said, it might be time to consider going to church here instead. As for the embryos, we've decided already to keep them. There are 6, so if they all lived, we'd have 9 kids. And love every minute of it!" Carmen chuckles. "Speaking of kids...that's a funny story. How I learned we weren't divorced was that Matt forgot to turn in the papers and the kids found them and colored on them the first time I visited before moving back in. Now, I see that things are better than before, when he was drinking, even though it's been a hard road. Maybe the kids did us a favor, because we're both still in love. Time will tell, I guess. Addictions aren't easy to deal with."
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Post by MarieEliz (Mayor) on Jul 31, 2019 17:33:42 GMT -8
Theo gives her an innocent and comforting pat on the shoulder. "Maybe God was protecting you from more hurt. The Bible says He hates divorce and I don't believe it is because He is angry and legalistic. I think He knows how much divorce can hurt everyone involved. God is all about second chances. Imagine how much glory He is bringing to Himself by reconciling your marriage! The Bible teaches that earthly marriage is a reflection of marriage between Christ and the church. God reconciles us to Himself and each other and he forgives us over and over again. Now you marriage has the opportunity to reflect that, too."
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Post by Joelle on Aug 2, 2019 13:32:49 GMT -8
"Oh wow. I never thought of that." Carmen smiles. "I know that doesn't mean it'll be easy- he told me he's been sober for two years, but...I've heard that's a daily struggle for some people. And he may mess up again. But...I never wanted to divorce, really. I only left because I was worried for my safety. I still feel guilty about leaving the triplets, but...he understands, and he told me his mom did too. Even though they were so young when I left, they were so excited to see me at that first visit!" Now Carmen is grinning from ear to ear. "If you want to know what that was like... imagine three of an excited Verity! Matt told me he had explained enough to them that they knew it wasn't my fault. We have time to make up for, but...they're different than I thought they would be." She pauses, trying to think of how to explain. "They don't act like they've been left. It was like I was just on vacation or something. They're well-behaved- mostly- sweet, mischievous, thoughtful kids. " She is so happy, but despite that, her eyes turn serious for a moment.
" Just pray for all of us. If something should happen, I don't want everything to rip apart again, but I know I also need to work on my agape. When I met Matt, he wasn't addicted. That came later. When his friend Austin died- it wasn't like our family and Dawn. Matt was actually there when Austin was killed, and that's when the drinking started."
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Post by MarieEliz (Mayor) on Aug 5, 2019 22:23:13 GMT -8
Theo smiles. "Kids are resilient, aren't they? They are much more forgiving than the best of us. I encourage you to really invest in their lives. Sometimes children are affected in ways we don't see at first. That can come out especially in the teen years."
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Post by Joelle on Aug 7, 2019 15:41:45 GMT -8
Carmen wants to understand, but doesn't quite. "I'm not planning on leaving them ever again no matter how bad things may get, but did you mean 'invest in their lives' like with some type of counseling? Not that that's out of the question. I just never thought about it before." She pauses, thinking of something else. "Matt is also former Army, like Trenton. God only knows what he saw there."
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Post by MarieEliz (Mayor) on Aug 7, 2019 18:51:54 GMT -8
Theo chooses his words carefully. "They may not understand why you didn't take them with you when you left. If you were concerned for your life, weren't you concerned for theirs?"
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Post by Joelle on Aug 8, 2019 10:35:31 GMT -8
"I did think of that...later. I suppose the short answer is they had people in the family. And I didn't think an escape with children would be easy. Panicking. Pure and simple."
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Post by MarieEliz (Mayor) on Aug 12, 2019 16:23:12 GMT -8
Theo nods without judgment. "Has our conversation helped answer your questions?"
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Post by Joelle on Aug 13, 2019 6:57:28 GMT -8
" Yes. Thanks. I'm a lot less confused scripturally now. And I did call his mom and Brianna before so they knew. I do wish it hadn't happened. And if it comes to that again I won't leave them. Thanks... More than you know."
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Post by MarieEliz (Mayor) on Aug 16, 2019 23:35:31 GMT -8
Theo touches her innocently on the shoulder. "Anytime. " He walks her out.
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Post by Joelle on Aug 17, 2019 9:25:04 GMT -8
(OOC: this is a good end. I think Josephine and I were planning some drama with Matt and Carmen, though, so she will eventually visit again.)
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